I agree that making things too plain, or imbuing everything with "obvious meaning" can be a problem. I like characters that don't know what they want, I like loftcratian horror-style stories where the feeling is more important than any explicit meaning. I think "trite" is a good word to describe a clumsy writing that attempts to give more symbolism to something than it deserves, dismissing a certain dimension of something complicated in favor of silly archetypes.
That said, you only really talked about names here. Did MARDEK's names have a recognizable world-building sound to them? Yes. Did I perceive them as meaning something profound? Not really. Did they have a D&D feeling of the style Tobias is probably trying to grow out of? I'd assume this is what's happening here. Why not change the names as a part of an aesthetic divide? They're only *names* after all... I find them charmingly different, now; they're kind of their own thing now, instead of being an odd mesh of syllables.
3
JohnnyBoi45~4Y
I suppose the names are charmingly different, in a way. Some of them I actually quite like - "Cloud-Clad Castle" is more interesting than "Castle Goznor," for example. But unfortunately for the rest we may just be in a stalemate of opinions - I say "why" and you say "why not?" I certainly have opinions on "why not": some of the new names just sound less appealing, I definitely find that using so many combined English words for every place sounds juvenile, and choosing Latin as the "oh it means this but it's not in English" is probably the lowest hanging fruit, because so much of English is basically just latin roots. But again, I cannot back these up with any objective truth. Do I find them a step back the original names? Yes. Do I have reasons why? Yes. I would love to know your reasons as to why you find the new names better... I'm not beyond being convinced that I'm wrong.
But overall, as I said, the names are just symptoms of the larger issue. Some don't really make a difference like "Gemsand" or "Wyrmourn," though in my opinion they are simply sonically inferior to their predecessors. Some, like "Lake Lacrimosa" or "Heropolis" feel much more awkward and generic. But where this matters is really in the story itself. Are we going to be experiencing contrived, "profound" dialogue the whole time? I watched some of the Taming Dreams longplay, and the expository dialogue, while certainly more serious and meaningful in nature than whatever Mardek's exposition was, is just awkward. The phrase "dreams drive us to divine discoveries" is repeated no fewer than 4 times just in the first conversation, and then again before the boss - I know it's Deugan playing as Enki and that's his "motto," but it feels so stilted. Mardek's P-dialogues somehow captured a very good combination of realism and absurdism, but I feel that in the newer installments movement away from the absurd, they have somehow made it less realistic as well.
3
Tama_Yoshi82~4Y
It gets abstract debating names and realism. I'm an amateur writer myself, so I've some mind on this, but mostly it's mixed feelings. I haven't played Taming Dreams or watched much of it, but I agree with your sentiment on flowery dialogue. I like dialogue where people talk "normally", with occasional exceptions to emphasize certain oddities.
I have divine characters that talk with bourgeois vocabulary, and a Wizard that inexplicably always talks in rhymes, even when having mundane conversations:
"Two things," he said. "A compass ring, and shoes with wings." [...] "The Compass Ring will point you to Somar, the Pegasus Shoes will carry you in a blur."
It's strange, and I just HAD to have the other characters acknowledge how strange it was (both characters here are divine beings):
She chuckled. "Y'know, I've been eavesdropping on your quarrel, and I have to ask, do you *have* to rhyme *everything* you say? Were you cursed to sound imperious? So you'd be ostracized?"
"A word that flies dies. Forced reprises make the words wise."
"Orange!" she shouted, "Orange, orange!"
"Trying to destabilize me, is it on what you hinge? At this rate, you'll barely mobilize me."
She burst out laughing. "How do you do that!?"
And I kinda like that, although it's definitely on the fringes. My point? Uh... I guess I agree, maybe, it depends. Full realism is almost always bad or impossible, and voluntary excess in irrealism can be interesting.
Most things tend to have roots that are transformed variations of a word, or words, in some other language. Latin and English are just the most obvious ones when we think of this, and by being more obvious, they usually have a more "fairy-tale" or "new age" feeling, I find. I also know the sound "k" is usually the most memorable sound, but it also feels more gritty, like "r". "Orc", "Mordor" I actually found it more difficult than expected to find examples, oh well. Maybe the resistance to terms like "Divine Dreams" is that it just evokes such a radically different area of ideas than the typical D&D concepts (war and blood, black magic and barbarity). Divine Dream is spelled with D and D as well... but it evokes to me more things like souls, fate, predestination, emotions, inner energy. It's very different, and the appeal will be different too, but because it's artistically aligned with what Divine Dreams is, I think it's fine.
It's difficult to find objectivity in art, but I think consistency is at least one where we can agree with (unless the inconsistency is for effect, in which case... waaaaaaaahhhh).
4
JohnnyBoi45~4Y
I love those dialogue examples! They're really quite fun. I agree that "full realism" is often ill-fated. You bring up an interesting point about the phonetics of "Divine Dreams." I personally have no problem with that as a title, but it does make me think a bit about other names like Gemsand, Honeyblood, Fathom, etc, which also use those softer consonants. In my latest reply to Tobias I recognized that there's truly no issue with any of these names from a "realism" standpoint, so any remaining issue I have with them is basically "I don't like how this sounds," which is subjective. At this point, the only thing left to say is that I hope Tobias recognizes how some of these names might come off, not just to nostalgia-riddled players of the original Mardek, but new fans who might see Anvilicious [LINK] names such as "Heropolis" or "Godsbod" and judge the game poorly based on that. It seems small, but these surface-level details can make a big difference to an outsider.
2
Tama_Yoshi82~4Y
I don't know about you, but when I read Heropolis, I immediately thought about the Mighty Heroes, which were absolutely on the nose. "Gosh, they were so arrogant, they named a city after themselves." If that were the case, wouldn't it be pretty appropriate? :P
2
JohnnyBoi45~4Y
I actually mentioned this in a different comment! I had forgotten that Heropolis is now the capital of the "Bold" race, so it actually could be appropriate if that's how they are personality-wise.
That said, you only really talked about names here. Did MARDEK's names have a recognizable world-building sound to them? Yes. Did I perceive them as meaning something profound? Not really. Did they have a D&D feeling of the style Tobias is probably trying to grow out of? I'd assume this is what's happening here. Why not change the names as a part of an aesthetic divide? They're only *names* after all... I find them charmingly different, now; they're kind of their own thing now, instead of being an odd mesh of syllables.
But overall, as I said, the names are just symptoms of the larger issue. Some don't really make a difference like "Gemsand" or "Wyrmourn," though in my opinion they are simply sonically inferior to their predecessors. Some, like "Lake Lacrimosa" or "Heropolis" feel much more awkward and generic. But where this matters is really in the story itself. Are we going to be experiencing contrived, "profound" dialogue the whole time? I watched some of the Taming Dreams longplay, and the expository dialogue, while certainly more serious and meaningful in nature than whatever Mardek's exposition was, is just awkward. The phrase "dreams drive us to divine discoveries" is repeated no fewer than 4 times just in the first conversation, and then again before the boss - I know it's Deugan playing as Enki and that's his "motto," but it feels so stilted. Mardek's P-dialogues somehow captured a very good combination of realism and absurdism, but I feel that in the newer installments movement away from the absurd, they have somehow made it less realistic as well.
I have divine characters that talk with bourgeois vocabulary, and a Wizard that inexplicably always talks in rhymes, even when having mundane conversations:
"Two things," he said. "A compass ring, and shoes with wings." [...] "The Compass Ring will point you to Somar, the Pegasus Shoes will carry you in a blur."
It's strange, and I just HAD to have the other characters acknowledge how strange it was (both characters here are divine beings):
She chuckled. "Y'know, I've been eavesdropping on your quarrel, and I have to ask, do you *have* to rhyme *everything* you say? Were you cursed to sound imperious? So you'd be ostracized?"
"A word that flies dies. Forced reprises make the words wise."
"Orange!" she shouted, "Orange, orange!"
"Trying to destabilize me, is it on what you hinge? At this rate, you'll barely mobilize me."
She burst out laughing. "How do you do that!?"
And I kinda like that, although it's definitely on the fringes. My point? Uh... I guess I agree, maybe, it depends. Full realism is almost always bad or impossible, and voluntary excess in irrealism can be interesting.
Most things tend to have roots that are transformed variations of a word, or words, in some other language. Latin and English are just the most obvious ones when we think of this, and by being more obvious, they usually have a more "fairy-tale" or "new age" feeling, I find. I also know the sound "k" is usually the most memorable sound, but it also feels more gritty, like "r". "Orc", "Mordor" I actually found it more difficult than expected to find examples, oh well. Maybe the resistance to terms like "Divine Dreams" is that it just evokes such a radically different area of ideas than the typical D&D concepts (war and blood, black magic and barbarity). Divine Dream is spelled with D and D as well... but it evokes to me more things like souls, fate, predestination, emotions, inner energy. It's very different, and the appeal will be different too, but because it's artistically aligned with what Divine Dreams is, I think it's fine.
It's difficult to find objectivity in art, but I think consistency is at least one where we can agree with (unless the inconsistency is for effect, in which case... waaaaaaaahhhh).